An associate producer is the only guy in Hollywood who will associate with a producer.” – Fred Allen
Neely: I hope Fifteen Digits had a successful launch.
Let’s turn to television and the show you have on the air right now, “Breakout Kings.” I loved that pilot when I first read it and was shocked beyond belief (and it actually takes a lot to shock me) when FBC passed on it in favor of, what was the name of that New Orleans show that lasted 3 episodes?
Nick: 2 episodes. It was called “Lone Star” – not sure where it was set (Neely laughs). They decided to bring back 5 shows, or rather they decided to pick up 5 shows instead of “Breakout Kings.” None of those shows are on the air right now and “Breakout Kings” still is.
Neely: “Breakout Kings” has an incredibly unique history because even though FBC in their infinite wisdom passed on the show, one of the first to come out of Peter Chernin’s independent banner, they allowed Chernin to shop it elsewhere.
Nick: FBC was very kind to us when they decided not to pick up the show. They didn’t have to let us shop it but they did. I’m really appreciative of that. Everyone involved was.
Neely: That’s what I call shocker number one and it probably wouldn’t have happened if it had been anyone other than Chernin (maybe Spielberg, but it’s a really short list).
Nick: They were very cool about it. Peter Rice was kind enough to call me and he was a gentleman about it. He said, “Any other year, this show would have been picked up.” We were their highest testing pilot by far. It wasn’t really close. But they really felt strongly about “Lone Star.” They also felt strongly about “Chicago Code” and Shawn Ryan is a friend of mine so I wanted “Chicago Code” to do well. “Terra Nova” had some really big names behind it, so they had hopes for that too…
Neely: But “Terra Nova” didn’t get on the air that season, either.
Nick: It didn’t, no. And they also wanted to give “Lie to Me” and “Human Target” another chance. So they had a tough decision to make and they made that decision. They didn’t have a crystal ball. But if you’re asking if I was heartbroken, I was. If you’re asking if I was incredibly appreciative when FBC said they weren’t going to stand in the way of us trying to sell it someplace else, I was appreciative. And that’s where Peter Chernin was worth his weight in gold because he made a million phone calls and so did WME. Ari Greenberg and Rick Rosen really got behind the show. It was a million to one shot that A&E would pick up the show and they did!
Neely: That’s my shocker number 2.
Nick: Shocker number 2 that someone else would pick up the show?
Neely: Yes, but the shocker was that it was A&E.
Nick: Yeah! That is a shocker because it is a network that airs mostly unscripted series. They do have “The Glades,” and a new show that they’re going to come out with that’s a western that I don’t know too much about. But they picked us up when we were knocked down. I had left 20th for a couple of weeks and took a job at ABC. You have to understand. I went from having phone calls with 20th about where we wanted the “Breakout Kings” offices to be to five or six days later them saying that the show hadn’t been picked up. And the day after the show wasn’t picked up, I went back to the studio to have conversations with people there, kind of like a… what’s the right word?
Neely: Post-mortem.
Nick: Yeah. You know, like a coda where you’re wrapping things up.
Neely: I guess a kind of epilogue.
Nick: Anyway, I went over to 20th to have a conversation with them about what I would be doing next and when I tried to enter the lot, my ID no longer worked.
Neely: (Both laughing) Oh My God!
Nick: (still laughing) And literally the day before we were having conversations about what writers we could hire and where our offices would be and how we were the highest testing pilot. And 24 hours later I couldn’t get on the lot. (Neely really cackles) That’s Hollywood for you. And so it was really weird for me to take a job at another studio. It was good for me to get out there and spread my wings. They had asked me to go and help Chris Mundy who was running the “Criminal Minds” spin-off – help get that show off the ground and then they would let me develop. So I went over there to work for Chris who’s a total gentleman. I really liked Chris a lot and I liked the writers over there too.
I was there two weeks and I got a phone call that “Breakout Kings” had been picked up and I hadn’t even finished unpacking my office completely. I had kind of set up, but not really, and I had to pack everything back up. I remember my last day. I was there late trying to get an outline done for “Criminal Minds” just so that I wouldn’t leave them hanging.
Neely: (laughing) Unlike Mandy Patinkin.
Nick: (laughing) Exactly. And then we got on the air at A&E, it was a miracle. And you should give A&E a lot of credit.
Neely: Absolutely! It was a super high risk move for them.
Nick: It’s a high risk move and it’s their development people saying, “We know we developed our own stuff, but we think this pilot that other people developed and shot is better than the stuff we were working on. So we should bring it in to this network.” That takes guts and that takes confident, secure people, I think.
Neely: Yeah, because one of the reasons that a lot of things that are really really good don’t get on is because development executives, or rather development departments in general, have such ego-involvement that they only want it to be something that they’ve brought along from the beginning.
Nick: Yes. And A&E did not have that ego. A&E said that this was a good show and they wanted it on their network. In fact, they called WME… Bob DeBitetto called WME and said, “We watched the pilot and what’s the catch? What’s the problem that we’re not seeing? Are there issues with the cast? Are there issues with the showrunner? Are there people going out on benders all night? This show is great. Why did this not get picked up?” And the answer was that it was just a decision made by FBC. And by the way, they had every right to make that decision.
Neely: Of course. It’s their ballgame.
Nick: It’s their network and you can’t force them to put what you want on their network.
Neely: But it was a natural fit. And it was a natural fit for F/X also.
Nick: I wrote for the Fox network for half a decade. And I’d argue that during a five year period, I think I wrote more episodes for that network than anyone in the world. I was writing tons of “Prison Break” and then I wrote a few “Lie to Me’s” when I was consulting on that show.
I know what the FBC audience wants. I am the FBC audience. I like that kind of stuff so I know it would have benefitted FBC. But you know what? The executives over there don’t have a crystal ball; they’re trying to make the best decisions they can. Do I agree with their decision? Absolutely not. I think they should have picked us up but it worked out fine because we did wind up on the air and the show got a shot and the characters got to live and breathe, which was important to me because I do love the characters on that show. But I don’t have animosity toward FBC – I wrote for that network for 5 years!
Neely: As an outsider I can say that choosing is no longer as intuitive as it was with Brandon Tartikoff or Fred Silverman at the beginning of his career. It’s second–guessing. It’s not intuitive from the standpoint of “This is good, I’m going with my gut. I think it will work.” It’s second-guessing, as in “It’s like [fill in the blank] and people like [fill in the blank], so maybe we can do that again,” rather than having anything to do with the actual originality or quality.
Nick: What scares me a little about the decision making process as I’ve seen it change in the past 10 years, is that now you get a show about cops who investigate crimes but they have a fairy tale bent to them. (Neely snorts) Very cool idea. But now there’s going to be 7 more shows like that. And it’s already happening. You have a show that is successful in Arena A, so we have to have Arena A1, Arena A2, Arena A3, where it’s barely changed. Maybe they change the location of the city but the shows are almost identical, the same exact thing. It’s that lack of creativity that scares writers like me, and most writers that are actually creative.
There’s a handful of writers out there who literally watch TV and say, “That’s a good idea. Let me barely change it. I’ll be able to sell this.” I know who they are… and I know where they live. (Neely chuckles – face it, Nick’s a funny guy).
Neely: The other thing that happens now, using “Boss” as an example, although there are a ton of other examples (It’s a good show. I’ve seen a couple of episodes and Kelsey Grammar is surprisingly good)...
Nick: People have been raving about that show.
Neely: Yes. But I can just imagine the pitch meeting – “Okay, we’re doing a show about a Mayor Daley (a cross between father and son) type of character who controls everything and has a palpable veneer of corruption. It’s a big city. He’s duplicitous both for himself and on the part of the city.” You can see the executive going, “Yes, yes, yes. And, and, and?” “Well he’s got an estranged wife who plays both sides.” “And what else?” “And his daughter has a drug problem.” “Yes, and what else?” Now keep in mind, this is already an interesting show if the writer is good. Corruption always plays when combined with good actors and production values. And the exec keeps asking “What else? What else? What else?” Until the writer comes up with “And he has a neurological disease that causes him on occasion to be crazy.” Bingo.
Now-a-days it’s just a question of the high concept – “and, and, and” until they get something that is actually quite unnecessary, something dramatically decorous that removes a layer of relate-ability and believability. It actually takes you out of the character and out of the plot.
Nick: So what was the big hook in “Hill Street Blues?” What was the big hook in “NYPD Blue?” Nothing. Cop shows. The big hook was good writing; good acting.
Neely: And good characters.
Nick: And good characters, but that was in the writing. You can even go on the comedy side to one of the biggest comedic hits of the past 20 years is “Friends.” What was the hook there? Six people, friends, hanging out in the city. Just have good writing and good acting. “It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia” – bunch of nuts who work in a bar. Best thing on TV.
Neely: And the networks even dictate who you can hire, taking one more layer of creativity away. It’s eliminated most New York stage actors.
Nick: Now everything is, for lack of a better term, is…
Neely: …High Concept!
Nick: Yeah, it’s high concept. My agents sent me some of this year’s pilot scripts and said that there was interest in me running or being involved with one of the shows. But my concern with a lot of them was: “But what’s episode 13?”
Neely: I’ve read 84 of the scripts for the produced pilots and this is not a high water mark year for scripts. Last year was a terrific year for scripts and unlike years in the past, many of the series that were picked up are still on the air. This year’s scripts are redundant and bland and they’ve made ten steps backwards.
Nick: I haven’t read many of the scripts this year but my agents will send me scripts and give me the loglines. And my answer, honestly, to 75% of them has been “What’s episode 60, let alone episode 20 or episode 13? There are no legs to these things.
Neely: I agree. They have clear collision points. Many of them would be great but can only be done for a year. Even “Revenge,” one of my favorites and is on my “season pass,” has a collision point. Somewhere along the line, they’re all going to find out who she is and what she’s doing. Acknowledging such an end is taboo on network television. But on the one hand, one thing that we’ve been unable to crack is the very popular Latin format, the telenovela.
The telenovelas on the two Latin networks get better ratings in the big markets than our own mainstream shows. They get huge ratings here and in Latin America. And we keep losing market share. Why can’t we duplicate this model? A telenovela is a florid soap opera like “Revenge” that has a clear ending point. You know it will end and watch it to the finish and it signs off or some of the characters spin off to something new. They have figured out how to work with the diminishing attention span. It’s not a daytime soap played at night. It’s an episodic series mapped out to its finish at the end of a year or two. The audience is able to hold on to the story for a set period of time because they know it’s going to resolve. If you’re going to do a telenovela, that’s how you do it.
Nick: It’s funny because originally some of the discussions about “Prison Break” were that it would be 13 episodes or maybe a season and out. Eventually they just decided to go for it and luckily on that show, when we started out, we had a bunch of writers who have all since become showrunners. When the show first started, Matt Olmstead, Zac Estrin, Karyn Usher and I were writers on that staff and all four of us are now showrunners. Matt wound up taking over “Prison Break,” and we had such a strong staff that we were able to take a concept that should have been 6 episodes and have it go 80. I’m proud of that show; it was a great team effort. Our younger writers on that show are also all going to be super stars. Some already are. It was the best writing staff, it was just phenomenal.
You’re absolutely right that high concept normally translates to a great movie or at least a movie that might get made, because who knows how it’s going to come out. I’m hearing these pitches for pilots, and not just this year, but other years too, and I think – that’s a great concept but how does that last? And you look back to the heyday, some of the great shows in the history of television, some of the great dramas, they’re very simple. “The Sopranos,” mob family living in New Jersey…
Neely:…I would like to remind you that David Chase conceived of that as 13 episodes and out
Nick: You know, you can actually create great stories and great characters and they don’t need to be a mob family who’s also harboring a fucking alien. (Neely laughs loudly) It’s not necessary.
Neely: Don’t forget the vampires and werewolves.
I’ve actually written in terms of the high concept with the clear collision point. I don’t care about high concept. I care about character.
Nick: Generally, high concept equals low ratings.
Neely: I remember contacting you the first time, sort of a stalker/fan facebook message…
Nick: I didn’t think you were a stalker, I thought you were nice…
Neely: (laughing) …telling you because I was so thrilled about the turn of events on “Breakout Kings.” As you know, I originally named this blog No Meaner Place to highlight how wonderful scripts were left at the curb even though they might still be better served someplace other than its originally intended network. You and Matt gave hope to everyone… even though it hasn’t happened again since then. Still, hope springs eternal.
Nick: Honestly, really give credit where credit is due and that would be A&E. A&E really stepped up.
Neely: Your cast of characters in “Breakout Kings” is extraordinarily vibrant. Jimmi Simpson as the geeky white collar crime guy has become something of a breakout, pardon the pun (well don’t pardon, just accept it like my clichés).
Nick: Pun loved. We did the testing at that facility here in Burbank that tests every pilot. I forget the name of it but they’ve tested basically every pilot for the past 40 years. It’s where everyone goes. And we went to do the testing and the testing was phenomenal. We’re in editing a couple of days later, Matt and I, cutting the pilot with the wonderful Gavin Hood, who directed it, and the very talented Paul Trejo who cut it, and we get a phone call. And we’re told, “Look, we didn’t want to say anything until we’ve really checked our records, but in the history of us testing pilots, Lloyd Lowry, played by Jimmi Simpson, is the highest testing character we’ve ever had. Ever!”
I hung up the phone and then I thought about it for a second, and I said to Matt, “Think about it. That’s about 40 years with about 40 pilots a year if you include broadcast, premium cable, basic cable… so, you know, that’s 1600 pilots at least with an average of 6 characters per pilot. We’re talking about 10 thousand plus characters. And Jimmi Simpson (Lloyd Lowry) is number one on that list. The highest testing character. I don’t remember what it was, but he tested at some absurd number.
That was actually a bad phone call for us to get because we just kicked back and said, “No way they’re not picking this thing up!” (Both laugh loudly) And then, of course, we didn’t get picked up. I feel like we have one of the best casts on TV. I really do believe that.
We have Dominic Lombardozi who played Herc on “The Wire,” and “The Wire” was arguably one of the best series, if not the best series on television. People just rave about that show and then there’s Jimmi Simpson. I remember I put in an episode of “It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia” and played it for Matt. We were casting and as soon Jimmi he popped up on screen, Matt said, “Oh. Jimmi Simpson. I did a “Law & Order” with him. That guy’s phenomenal.” It was like serendipity. He knew exactly what Jimmi brought to the table immediately. Jimmi came in, read for the part the first day and we knew he was the guy. Malcolm Goodwin. He’s a guy who decides he wants to be an actor and then a year later he’s acting with Denzel Washington and Russell Crowe in “American Gangster.” Serinda Swan and Brooke Nevin. No two women should be that pretty and that good as actors. If we’re being honest, there are a lot of “quote unquote” actresses out there that are actors just because they’re attractive.
Neely: Do you mean like the women on “Law & Order?”
Nick: I… I… I don’t know what you’re talking about. (Both burst into loud laughter). But I do know that Serinda Swan and Brooke Nevin could look like me and still be a great actresses. And then Laz Alonso is a movie star. He just opened “Jumping the Broom” to huge numbers and he was a star in “Avatar.” He’s phenomenal although he’s no longer on the show.
Neely: Which brings me to… And you started the season with a real shocker (Spoiler alert if you haven’t seen the second season opener yet). WHY!!!!?
Nick: Laz Alonso, and I can’t stress this enough… I was on the phone with him when you showed up in my office earlier… He’s one of my very good friends in this industry. You try not to get too attached to your actors when you’re writing because you never know what’s going to happen to the characters. Unfortunately that doesn’t always work for me. I sometimes wind up becoming friends with actors I like and I love the cast on “Breakout Kings.” I’m still friends with a bunch of the actors from “Prison Break.” They’re going to come to my book launch party. They’re just good people, friends. So as hard as I try not to become friends, it just happens.
Laz is my friend and you don’t get many in life so it actually means something to me. Laz could not have done more for this show in Season 1. He was a breakout star on the show. He tweets til his thumbs fall off to promote anything that he does. He opens “Jumping the Broom,” a 6 million dollar movie that does a 50 million box office. You can’t walk down the street with him because you’re gonna get knocked over the head with panties and bras being thrown at you because women go batshit over him.
Neely: He’s gorgeous and he’s the real deal.
Nick: Yeah. He’s a movie star. I go to dinner with the guy and it’s like I’m not at the table. Waitresses don’t even look at me. He’s a great looking, talented guy and he was very very popular in Season One. He ended up being a victim of his own success. A&E is phenomenal at promoting this show. They are so great at putting us on every bus stop, every billboard. We owned Grand Central Station before Season One came out. We were everywhere. They are, and I say this kindly, they are phenomenal carnival barkers. They will get you to walk into the tent. They felt strongly that Season 2 needed a massive event to get people talking about the show and “A King will Fall” was the promotional vehicle that they felt would work. They wanted to show they meant business and really shock the audience and kill off the great looking, handsome male lead of this show. Not to say that Dominic Lombardozi isn’t great looking and handsome too (Neely giggles quietly) He’s a big,..
Neely: He’s no Laz Alonso.
Nick: …a big, bald Italian man. Like me, Dom’s my brother. I mean Laz and I also look like we could be brothers. Laz and me look so much alike (Neely is laughing uncontrollably at the image of Laz and Nick together). But, seriously, A&E felt this would be a huge huge event. And it did get people talking.
Neely: They were right about that, although they certainly worked against themselves when they kept running ads showing Laz getting shot.
Nick: If I could have my druthers, I would write the Charlie Duchamp (Laz) character and write for Laz Alonso for the rest of my life. But, that being said, this is a collaborative business and you can’t always get everything you hope.
Neely: Is he okay?
Nick: Laz just got cast in a new series today. He’s leaving tonight to go start filming. I was talking to him today, congratulating him. I couldn’t be happier for him.
Neely: Which series?
Nick: “Notorious.” He’s the male lead of that show. I think Laz is a movie star; I think he’s a male lead.
Neely: Well Denzel got his biggest break on TV.
Nick: I remember Denzel’s first movie, a silly comedy called…
Neely: ... “Carbon Copy.”
Nick: … with George Segal. It was this silly comedy but it was fantastic.
Neely: I liked it.
Nick: I liked it too.
Neely: We may have been the only two. And I saw Denzel in “Soldier’s Story,” both on stage and in the film.
Nick: Oh yeah.
Neely: He played the role of Peterson in LA and Samuel Jackson played the same role in the original production Off Broadway. It was for the Negro Ensemble Company and Denzel got to play the role when it was filmed.
Nick: Anyway, that’s how Laz’s character was bumped off. A&E, Fox21 and the writer/producers of “Breakout Kings” … not one of us had any problems with Laz Alonso. He was universally respected and loved. I would hate for people to think otherwise. The guy was fantastic for us and to us.
Neely: Let’s stop here for the time being. When we come back I’m going to want you to talk more about your personal taste and what you’ve been doing
